[Mr. Game & Watch]

As you all might know, the recent Smash Direct showcased an Altair Mii Fighter costume, meaning that Assassin's Creed has representation in Super Smash Bros Ultimate, but as of right now it is still on the site's ban list. Assassin's Creed appearing in a Smash Bros game does not give it a free pass, as such, don't expect any other game currently on our ban list to be reconsidered just because it made it into Smash Bros. I don't care if Mecha-Hitler gets a sticker or whatever in the next game, that won't make me even question our "no Hitlers" rule.

Assassin's Creed's unique situation has made some of the staff rethink our previous ban on the series, since it was largely problematic for its use of real world people and the possibility of people apping a real world figure because "get it? It's funny because Ben Franklin is fighting alongside Mario." That said, it might be wrong to deny people the opportunity to play characters from that series that have nothing to do with the real world figures, such as the assassins like Ezio and Altair. As such, this suspect test will be a bit different than the last. The historical figures will remain off the table, this suspect test is specifically for characters that originated from the Assassin's Creed universe.

Assassin's Creed will remain on the ban list regardless of the outcome, but if the majority votes for Assassin's Creed then I will add a little * next to it and an attached note below that will read as "*This pertains only to characters that are depictions of real world historical figures. Fictional characters such as Ezio and the other assassins are fair game."

[Maverick Hunter Zero]

Phreezey gave his testimony in this one.

In truth I would say no outright to the real world historical figures and the Isu and have the assassins and Templars histories largely reworked to better suit the lore of this forum, which I believe Phreezey would agree with.

Other than that, I say we give them a shot.

[KashKey]

I say yes, without a history rework being necessary. That's more work being put into a canon character than in any other series, and is unfair to those who want to play the assassins and templars. Writing history should be reserved as effort for OCs, and those willing to make them.

[Deleted]

I'll give my revised testimony on this one.

I think the fictional characters from Assassin's Creed should be playable on site, with the ability to reference the real world figures in the story. Albeit, without actually having any of those real world analogues appearing on Li. In Assassin's Creed II, for example, Leonardo DaVinci is a weaponsmith for the Assassins, and Ezio Auditore is given several upgrades from translated Codex Pages. Having Ezio be completely unaware Leonardo existed would bankrupt any relevancy his abilities and equipment had. However, having Leonardo played on site is (and pardon my french) an advanced shitpost.

So I remain with this - Let us play the non-Historical figures.

[Mari]

It won't bring me any pleasure to have normal, powerless humans from real-world settings with mundane weapons and just-short-of-mundane fighting kits running around the site. That would be a negative influence upon my enjoyment of the site. That's not what I came to a Nintendo-centric site for.

[Glimmericious]

I see no reason to ban fictional Assassin's Creed characters from the site.  The real world ones would obviously be a little more sus, but characters like Ezio should be fine.  As far as needing to rewrite their history goes, I don't really see the need for that, either.  It's not like someone is dragging in Caesar for their character.  I don't see the harm in being able to refer to heavily-bastardized versions of real-world characters.

[Therider]

Mundane Humans make fantasy even more epic. No one would really care about Lord of The Rings if the Hobbits were super powerful and solved every problem. The goal of fantasy and science fiction is to show that even the lowliest person can rise up and fight for honor and save the day.

Ezio and Altair are trained assassins, trained in most forms of combat. And let’s be honest, there are several people on this site now who have mundane move sets. I think of Isabelle, Olberic, Courier Six, Nora, these are just a few I thought off the top of my head right now. Do these characters deserve to be banned as well because they lack magic or fantastical elements?

Or better yet, my main character on site, Richter Belmont, uses quite a bit of weaponry that’s similar to the Assassins of AC. A whip, sacred blessed water, daggers, and axes. Not to mention martial arts training. To some, the religious aspects of these weapons are not fantastical, but mundane and a natural aspect of holy objects. Should I be forced to stop playing Richter because his weapons match Ezio’s?

Mundane characters build up the powered people around them. Superman is far less interesting than Batman in the Justice League because Bruce Wayne clawed his way to become the master he is today; born with nothing more than the wealth and time to do it. Iron Man is an intriguing character because it shows the world that one normal man can build something to become superb. Ezio and Altair are normal humans, no magic save the Apples of Eden, and they fight relying on pure skills alone. They deserved to be on the site because they allow us to show that anyone, with enough effort and skill, can rival even gods when brought to this world.

TLDR Yes they should be in.

[Mari]

Jan 17, 2020 14:43:52 GMT -8 Therider said:

The goal of fantasy and science fiction is to show that even the lowliest person can rise up and fight for honor and save the day.

...It's not, though. That's just one of many stories that can be told.

Jan 17, 2020 14:43:52 GMT -8 Therider said:

And let’s be honest, there are several people on this site now who have mundane move sets. I think of Isabelle, Olberic, Courier Six, Nora, these are just a few I thought off the top of my head right now. Do these characters deserve to be banned as well because they lack magic or fantastical elements?

Why should the ligality of one series imply the ligality of another? Why can't each series just be judged on its own merits? Can I also point out that we're comparing Animal Crossing and Assassin's Creed right now? Two series with almost nothing in common. If that logic is going to fly, why should we ban any series at all? Why not just ligalize GTA and shrug at anyone who doesn't want that series on the site? We could probably draw comparisons to other ligal games to try and draw a tenuous double standard regarding its illigality. The point I'm making here is that comparison shopping like this is insidious and disruptive to the greater conversation here.

We're not having a suspect test on these other series. Let's leave them out of this.

Jan 17, 2020 14:43:52 GMT -8 Therider said:

Superman is far less interesting than Batman in the Justice League because Bruce Wayne clawed his way to become the master he is today; born with nothing more than the wealth and time to do it.

I'm gonna go ahead and earn the disapproval of every comic fan by stating I disagree! When I look at Batman, I don't see a mundane man. I see a superhuman man poorly masquerading as a normal human in a world that seems weirdly unwilling to acknowledge his superhuman abilities. Frankly, I also see a Mary Sue and some tropes I really don't like, but there's no point in me ripping apart Batman here. Sufface to say, I would prefer to see a movie about Superman. Or y'know, a Marvel movie. They do mundane characters much better, imho.

Jan 17, 2020 14:43:52 GMT -8 Therider said:

Iron Man is an intriguing character because it shows the world that one normal man can build something to become superb.

Iron Man is not a normal man though. He is a super genius far beyond the scope any normal man could ever hope to be. He builds power armor far exceeding what normal humans can even dream of building through sheer improvisation. McGyver has nothing on this man.

Jan 17, 2020 14:43:52 GMT -8 Therider said:

Mundane characters build up the powered people around them.

Jan 17, 2020 14:43:52 GMT -8 Therider said:

Ezio and Altair are normal humans, no magic save the Apples of Eden, and they fight relying on pure skills alone. They deserved to be on the site because they allow us to show that anyone, with enough effort and skill, can rival even gods when brought to this world.

Well hold on now. Do they build powered characters up, or tear them down by rivaling them? These two statements are irreconcilable.

I would also like to offer a different perspective on this. I would consider it very frustrating if some martial artist with a mundane weapon could rival gods. That would lead me to become disillusioned with a setting.

[Jade Callisto]

Mari we should probably just let the vote decide and go from there okay?

[PolarStarQuote]

Im writing this long-winded piece to try and hopefully coax myself into deciding whether or not Assassins Creed should receive my vote for yes and for no, and hopefully if you read it as well, you can have your opinion reinforced, changed, Or settled if you have yet to settle.


Now, I will be first to admit, i have a slight bias, as i have *never* been that big a fan of the assassins creed series, even back in its supposed 'Golden Age' of 2 and...I think every game between 2 and before 3. But, The whole reasoning for that, is because i find it to be Game play wise, very boring. But story wise, i can somewhat see the reasoning to vote for Assassins creed? In my research, i have discovered:

Assassins creed's advanced technology seems alot more....Magical, than i initially thought. The Isu come across as particularly magical, being sixth-sense possessing God-like creatures appearing in AC Renaissance onward, That have created advanced technology way back in the 200 BC Days, Creating the first technology that eventually lead to the creation of the Animus as a whole, As well as hyper advanced technology such as the Apples of Eden, Eden as a whole, and The Maaaany 'Pieces of Eden' that downright seem like magical artifacts. So, Its not entirely unfounded to say that divine magic is somewhat the basis of the technology in AC as a whole. 

And then...I read about Assassins Creed 3.



"While trapped in an alternate reality, Ratonhnhaké:ton retained the same skill level. Upon drinking the tea of the great willow, he was granted supernatural abilities linked to the spirit animals of the wolf, eagle, and bear. Additionally, he could summon a pack of wolves to attack his enemies."






Im sorry, but, This seems like a major point in the Magical Department. The Man's out here straight up summoning wolves, Turning invisible and Connecting to animal spirits!


But sadly, This point doesn't stand nearly as strong for me as i feel it should. Because...Well, Assassins creed, as a series, doesn't try or make any major effort to come across, or play itself off with these elements first and foremost. Assassins creed strives, at its core, to be Historically Accurate despite these fantastical technology pieces, And fictional Assassin Creed's and Templar's running about. No one particularly motions toward Assassins creed being a fantasy series, Any average AC Fan will praise its historical accuracy first and foremost, When one isnt debating the Ligality of the series, of course.

The Animal Spirits and Wolf summoning thing?? Those are abilities gained after drinking Tea of the Red Willow, Which makes the legitimacy of these magical abilities dubious at best. And even then, These are powers used are a single footnote, in One entry, in the entire 10 games!

There are Gods, mentioned *by Name* in the series, With staffs and legacies that are similar to the gods of the fable's they're based on, yet often times they are either Isu that simply have really technologically advanced Sticks, or just illusions made by the Animus.

And thus, comes to the Debate; The Mundane VS The Fantastical.

Assassins Creed may be Very fantastical, in comparison to real life, But in comparison to other series's? It comes across as very mundane, and thats not a particularly bad thing, if your into that, But for Ligality? Its...Irksome, in my opinion. To me, The Most fantastical element of the Assassins creed series, is the Gun Sleeve from Assassins creed 2. Thats wholly from my experience with the series, and i suppose by my own volition, the whole wolf summoning buisness defeats the purpose right then and there. But...When the most fantastical elements of your series comes down to these things:

-A few Gadgets that all around come back to just being 'Gun'
-Possibly Hallucination-inspired Magic?
-God-people that are ultimately just Humans 2.0
-Some really fancy technology
-A Virtual Reality Machine

...It doesn't necessarily come across as fantastical *enough.* Especially in comparison to some other serieses. Earlier mentioned examples, Fallout features literal Mini-nuke launchers that go over the shoulder, Radioactive Iguana's that become actual friggin' Godzilla's, The entire post apocalyptic landscape, Aliens, Etc. Castlevania features Monsters, Fantasy castles that morph and move on there own, Actual spells and sorcery and Divine Holy Magic imbued in Steel-- Even Isabelle has Cartoonish antics and cutesy asthetic going for her. 

Assassins creed, as a whole, Lives and Breathes on historical accuracy, and to that extent, It's reasons for Ligality seems...Unworthy, to me. I cant easily picture most AC characters having an interesting interaction with most of our site's characters, and they'd certainly seem out of place among the Fantastical elements serieses like Resident Evil, Kirby or Persona provide.

Im voting a Thought-out No on this one.

[PolarStarQuote]

Howdy everyone! Sorry to perhaps cut things a bit short here, But We the Staff have come to see and realize that the Voting and Debate system we have in place at the moment suffers from some major flaws that we feel need to be worked out  and come back to, before we can continue allowing suspect tests in good faith. This can mainly be accounted onto us for expecting a system designed to create arguments to not bring about...Well, Arguments. And, with that, we want to apologize greatly to our members.


We mainly want to tackle three key points moving forward:

These suspect tests inevitably enter the realm of Politics, as has been evident by...Well, Literally every suspect test we've had thus far. It immediately drives a wedge in our members, and has even lead to some members leaving the site because they dont want to be involved with it! Sadly,  The Current system immediately forces a Political-style debate where Debates are less about the subject at hand, and more Arguments about the people your arguing with. And we pride ourselves on getting you *away* from your family at the thanksgiving dinner table, Not an alternative themed around Mario |D

Discussion is sadly, not everyone strong point. Sometimes ones point, Well meaning as it is, Doesn't necessarily help in the debate were having now. For instance, A Common argument for these suspect tests is 'It should be approved, because that means more series to app, and thats more stuff we can enjoy, Therefore, Better!' Without realizing that the whole reason were having these suspect tests, is to see if maybe the series shouldn't be here to begin with for troublesome reasons. Arguments like these tend to make it pointless to even have these suspect tests to begin with, when the whole reason were having them is being effectively ignored. There are countless arguments like these that come about during these suspect tests. arguments like "Well X is Ligal, And they have similar elements to the series here, why is this a debate?" or "Maybe its better we have a series that is more un-fantastical, so it can prove a better difference!"

Its kinda like driving a car down a street made of nails, You know? We get better, more durable, and stronger tires, But no matter what we do, we still get the same nail's in the same spot's of our tire's. So, We'd like to step back and think about why these arguments keep cropping up, so we can avoid them.


And lastly, Its just a simple fact. The Nature of these suspect tests create Disagreement, and Disagreement creates Argument. And that is mainly what we want to try and stop, and mend.


So, Were closing off this suspect test, so we can maybe brainstorm and make a better way for future suspect tests. We will hold deeper discussion on Assassins Creed as a Viable series with a few members such as Phreeze, so we can make a properly informed decision.


Thank you for understanding!

[PolarStarQuote]

Thank you all for the wait! After deliberation between Staff with evidence presented to us, we have decided that Assassins Creed shall officially be Ligal/Appable, with Conditional Appability!


What this means is, essentially, there will be a few caveat's to keep in mind when apping this series.

1.) None of the Historical/Real World Figures from AC are allowed to appear. Think of it like how Kingdom Hearts Characters cant have Disney Characters popping in and around either.

2.) Your assassin of choice can *not* appear as a result of the Animus, as this would cause a major Lore break on the site by implying Li is part of a Virtual Reality/Computer Simulation, which...You know. It isnt and never will be. As well, if you app one of the characters, you are apping That character. You app Ezio, you app the man himself, Not a Digital Simulation, unless you got a good story reason for it. So, Just keep that in mind! Our Staff and Lore Keepers will do what they can to make sure that doesnt occur.

Thank you very much, and Happy...Assassinating, i suppose!