[Mari]

Alright! Today I'm going to teach everyone about lovemaking! ...Wait, hold on that didn't come out right. I DIDN'T MEAN IT THAT WAY AAAH--

Okay, that's my one bad joke for the thread. In this thread I'll be answering questions and giving advice to people on the art of writing romance in a roleplay. Specifically, we'll be talking about how characters show that they're in love with each other. It's a thing that a lot of people have told me they don't feel confident in, and while I'm not a 'master' of the art of the romance genre, I think I'm okay at it.

To do this though, I need to know more specifically what people need help with. And so I need people to ask questions. You can ask any questions you want and I'll answer them. Anything is on the table for discussion. If I can't answer it here due to site restrictions, I'll politely let you know. Here are some ideas on what topics I could address though. You're not limited to them. They're just suggestions for where to get started.

Prior to a relationship being established: 

• How do you portray attraction?
• What is flirting and how do you do it?
• Touching and affection
• How do you communicate to someone that you want to ship with them?
• How might a character with X personality type behave when they're in love?
• How does masculinity and feminity change the way that a character approaches love?
• Obsession and other love related character flaws. How do you portray them?
  

When you're in a relationship:

• How do you make a romance interesting and distinct from a close friendship?
• The role of flirting with someone you're already together with
• Touching and affection 2.0
• How do you write a good hug or a good kiss without coming off like a hormonal teenager?
• Monogamy, Polyamory, Open Relationships
• Power dynamics, protector, and provider dynamics and their role in many relationships.
• Fun/cute things people who are in a relationship can do to show they love each other
• Relationship struggles: Good habits and bad habits for writing bumps in a relationship
• Relationship cliches: Jealousy? Cheating? Tropes to avoid.
• How does attraction evolve and change once you're in a real relationship?
• How do you exercise discretion and subtlety when it comes to characters having the hots for each other?
• Relationship quirks and problems, and how they can sometimes work to a relationship's betterment.
• Abuse, controlling, and dangerous relationships; their value and the risks of writing one
• Puppy Love, or the art of relationships with characters whose interests are platonic-romantic

[Blade Unlimited]

This seems like a good starter question:

How do you communicate to someone that you want to ship with them?

[PolarStarQuote]

Here's a Few!


What are some good way to have a character Flirt with Confidence? As well-- How to Flirt in a 'I want a relationship' way, Versus 'I want to make you flustered and suffer' way

Some good ways for a character who isnt known for being 'Romantic', Or just not very good at it, To show genuine affection? 

Some ways to show a Character is successfully Flustered without resorting to the usual Blush and Stammer combo?

Fun Date Ideas/Cute Date Ideas

"How do you write a good hug or a good kiss without coming off like a hormonal teenager?" Is a good one.

How to Portray Jealousy, without upsetting your fellow writer as the other party?

Polyamoury is just a nice kind of all around topic im curious about.


How to write a Genuinely *bad* romantic partner, without making them just a cartoonish caricature of a bad romantic partner?

How to write Tragedy in Romance, A Death or Major Injury?

How to display your character is open for shipping/Asking about Shipping

And of course

[TheSpatialWeeg]

Answer everything.

Jokes aside. In terms of pre-relationship, I guess my big questions are how do I portray attraction, and Touching and affection. I was gonna ask about communicating ships, but Blade already asked that question, so I'm not gonna repeat that.

Now for an unique one(?): How do I make the realization that someone's in love with another feel natural?

Now for the relationship is the meat and potatoes of this post.

• How do you make a romance interesting and distinct from a close friendship? (Lack of confidence on whether I'm actually writing a romantic pair rather than 'close friends except they kiss sometimes')
• Touching and affection 2.0 (Want to expand my repertoire on things I can do)
• How do you write a good hug or a good kiss? (Again, lack of confidence)
• Fun/cute things people who are in a relationship can do to show they love each other (Again, expanding on the repertoire of things I can do)
• What relationship clichés I should avoid? (Guess why this one is here)
• Good habits and bad habits for writing bumps in a relationship (Taking notes for the future)
• Power dynamics (Taking notes/general interest)
• Polyamory/Open Relationships (Same with Power dynamics)

[Jade Callisto]

My only question is how do you approach someone you want to ship with? I mean I am not really good at this type of thing.

[Mari]

Sept 14, 2021 13:21:19 GMT -8 Blade Unlimited said:

This seems like a good starter question:

How do you communicate to someone that you want to ship with them?

Sept 14, 2021 13:29:14 GMT -8 PolarStarQuote said:

How to display your character is open for shipping/Asking about Shipping

Sept 14, 2021 14:38:45 GMT -8 Jade Callisto said:

My only question is how do you approach someone you want to ship with? I mean I am not really good at this type of thing.

There are two ways to approach this. The first is to just be direct with someone and ask them out of character. If you take this route, you should be be ready to talk with them about why you think it would be a nice ship and give them something of your vision for the ship. And the downside of doing it this way is that some people will not appreciate it because they might prefer to grow ships organically through in character actions. I don't usually use this method myself. Usually. But it is valid. And it's certainly quite a bit easier.

The other way is to just start discreetly having your character show a keen interest in theirs IC and doing things that invite their character to return the favor. So for example, outfits. You can compliment their outfit or some feature of their looks, such as their makeup, and then have your character talk about their own outfit while modeling for them. Obviously that's a fairly girly example, but you can extend it to other things too. It could be something else, like a gameboy your character just happens to have.

If they show interest in your character, that is a positive hint. It doesn't mean they want to ship, but the more and more of those you get, the more likely it is they'd be happy to ship.

The next evolution of that concept is asking the character to hang out and do stuff together. Or discreet forms of affection/flirting. Your goal isn't to hide that you're interested in them, but rather to be test the water and inch forward until you either find a point at which they stop reciprocating or you get to a position where ICly asking them if they want to be in a relationship has been built up and makes sense. At that point, doing it IC or OOC are equally valid. If they stop reciprocating, it doesn't necessarily mean they aren't interested unless they start doing so consistently. Sometimes it just means they aren't in the mood for a scene, want to move on to a new scene, or they'd prefer to be advanced in a different way.

Sept 14, 2021 13:29:14 GMT -8 PolarStarQuote said:

Here's a Few!

What are some good way to have a character Flirt with Confidence? As well-- How to Flirt in a 'I want a relationship' way, Versus 'I want to make you flustered and suffer' way

The secret to casual confidence is keeping in mind that other people want to be loved too and that it's not a big deal if they say no, and then applying that view to your character.

When a confident character decides to flirt with someone, they should internally expect that the other character likes them and appreciates it to some extent. People don't flirt with people they don't think are attracted to them unless they're trying to fluster them.

There's also a gendered element to this. It is harder for a feminine character to show overt, bold interest in someone else within the confines of femininity. It's basically a meme among lesbian spaces that lesbians are perpetually oblivious to each other's interest because of this. If you're playing a super feminine character, consider having them build up to having confidence and struggle with it a bit instead of just having them be confident as a norm.

That being said, here are some very bold, confident methods of expressing interest:

if a natural situation arises where it would be topical to comment on someone's appearance, just tell them they're hot. It is fairly normal for confident and assertive people to be upfront about that sort of thing. The critical factor is keeping it a compliment, as opposed to wolf howling at them on the street. That's why I advice waiting for it to be topical.

If neither character is touch averse, get physical. Wrap an arm around them. Hold hands. Very light physical affection is a discreet but common way of signaling interest.

Embrace and hold someone and don't let go unless they (not necessarily verbally) insist. If they are smaller than your character, the lap is an extra nice place to hold them. Carrying them also works. If that's too subtle, holding their head to your chest might as well be a neon flashing sign. Works for both sexes by the by. This isn't a boobs thing. It works really well for guys too. If you're smaller, be a little clingy. Invite them to hold you by leaning into them and wrapping your arms around one of theirs. You want to communicate a neediness or desire without saying anything. If they don't return the gesture, it doesn't mean rejection. The only thing that necessarily means rejection is if they refuse to be held.

Ask them out! Which is a fancy way of saying invite them somewhere where you can have more personal moments with them. A good modern example would be inviting them to watch movies with you, inviting them to eat with you. This is typically as a lead up to discussing dating directly, asking them to sleep over with you, or other forms of expressing interest. Please note: Sleepovers have a different connotation for heterosexual pairings that you will want to be careful not to invoke on accident.

Specifically for lesbians, beautification bonding can be a nice one. The three examples are: Letting another girl work on your hair, letting another girl work on your makeup, and trying on outfits at the store together to show off and provide feedback. These are good on their own, but because of the above funny-because-its-kinda-true meme your commentary is going to be important to distinguishing it from sisterly bonding. See my first piece of advice about just telling them they're hot. It's fine to beat around the bush with lesbians, but if you want to eliminate the funny oblivious meme, you have to be super forward.

Sept 14, 2021 13:29:14 GMT -8 PolarStarQuote said:

Some good ways for a character who isnt known for being 'Romantic', Or just not very good at it, To show genuine affection? 

If they simply aren't a romantic person, their affection is going to be indistinguishable from that of a close friend. They might hug/hold for comfort or protection. They might share food or hold hands.

But if they have romantic feelings/desires for someone and just aren't good at showing it, typically they'll engage in attention-seeking behavior and become a bit frustrated when their needs aren't met. This'll typically result in a bit of whining and clinginess as they try to urge their partner to help them.

Now, if they're REALLY bad at showing affection for people they like, you get into like, pervert/bully territory. That's why the whole "Kids bully people they like" thing happens, and why people often grow out of it eventually. There you get things like touching that's too rough/hurts, touching places people don't want to be touched, careless bullying because they like the reaction and don't understand the consequences, and even pushing forms of touching/affection on people against their will.

Now I'm going to give you a hot take. Perverts and bullies don't necessarily have to be bad people. It's a character flaw like any other. One you have to be cautious evoking. But  sometimes when someone pushes a hug or kiss on someone who clearly doesn't want it, it's because they genuinely really like them and the idea of rejection was so scary to them in the moment that they tuned out the signs the other didn't want it in hopes they'd go away. Or maybe they're just bad at recognizing body language in general.

I'll tell ya', there are plenty of perverts in relationships, some of whom actually overcome their issues with help from their partner. And there are some people who are literally just okay with more aggressive and assertive attention from someone because they understand the underlying feelings are real. It's not a perfect relationship we don't live in a perfect world. So yes, it's theoretically possible for Choppun to find love. ...Provided he takes a bath first. And doesn't reject them for the sake of a gag.

Sept 14, 2021 13:29:14 GMT -8 PolarStarQuote said:

Some ways to show a Character is successfully Flustered without resorting to the usual Blush and Stammer combo?

So, blushing is an okay response. You don't have to avoid that, but I wouldn't emphasize that either. It's involuntary, so it's not something that depends on personality or character type or anything like that. Typically it takes up only a couple of words in my response. Stammering on the other hand should be used sparingly. It's a bit of a cliche. I'll use it once in a while when someone's stumbling over their words in a panic, but only just a tiny bit.

You can have them tense up, either visibly or in someone's grasp if there's touching involved. Someone tensing up while you're touching them is something hard not to notice.

You can also have them scowl and shake their head in annoyance.

You can have them ball their fists.

You can have them laugh nervously. Note that nervously doesn't necessarily imply soft or quiet laughter, though it can be.

You can have them snap a little verbally. Give them a little lip. Tell them they can kiss a rude place. Get sassy. It shouldn't be a serious/personal insult. It should be something eye-roll worthy and inconsequential.

My personal favorite from when I was younger was to make a strangling gesture at them and pretend to be madder than I am for a brief moment.

A light shove also works.

If you're living that thug life like Iris, that shove can turn into a bit of brief wrestling. I can think of a few times I've been sitting next to someone, they've made a really annoying remark, and I just pushed them over and sat on them for maximum disrespect.

If you really like the person doing the flustering, you can try to disarm them by hugging them or burying your face in them to hide your expression. You could whine at them to quit it.

[Mari]

Sept 14, 2021 13:29:14 GMT -8 PolarStarQuote said:

Fun Date Ideas/Cute Date Ideas

Pajama date where you don't bother getting dressed in the morning, don't do any work, and sit around watching movies and being nice to each other while snacking on pizza all day.

Dinner date at a buffet that progressively turns into an eating contest out of sheer unspoken bratty competitive energy but it's cool because nobody was actually keeping track of how much they ate they just didn't want to stop first so they both win.

Theme Park visit.

Carnival visit.

Laser Tag.

Go camping and snuggle under the starlit sky.

Go play with dogs.

Sept 14, 2021 13:29:14 GMT -8 PolarStarQuote said:

"How do you write a good hug or a good kiss without coming off like a hormonal teenager?" Is a good one.

Sept 14, 2021 14:13:51 GMT -8 TheSpatialWeeg said:

How do you write a good hug or a good kiss? (Again, lack of confidence)

The devil is in the details when it comes to writing a good hug or a kiss. Like, the fundamentals of hugs and kisses are frankly boring. It's what they represent and how you communicate that which makes them much more interesting.

So, a hug. The most basic hug is a compulsory hug, maybe with a pat on the back, lasting no more than a couple of seconds. It's the hug you give a family member as they're getting ready to leave for a while or the hug you give a friend as a greeting. It is what it is. But now I have to talk about what a hug is.

A hug is an embrace, yeah? You're holding someone. And the romantic function of holding someone is threefold. It can communicate a desire to protect someone.  It can communicate clinginess, a desire not to let someone go. Or it can demonstrate a desire to be close to someone. In all three cases, a romantic hug is typically going to last 2-3x as long as a normal one, and may very well simply not end and transition into cuddling or being carried if the situation allows. You won't get compulsory backpats. Instead you'll get something more sensual like back rubs, or an arm wrapped around the waist, or a hand caressing the head or brushing through the hair. And the words exchanged during such an embrace are going to be sweeter. Holding someone's head against your chest is also a very intimate way to hug someone. Once again, this goes for both sexes. Marshmallow Helling someone is absolutely fun and I've known more than a couple of girls who will do it on purpose just to amuse themselves, but I can tell you with certainty that men's chests have a pretty similar effect in terms of romance when it comes to laying your head against them.

A hug can even be combined with little kisses. Speaking of which, kisses! If you read any smutty fanfiction you might get the impression that a good kiss reads like the characters are attempting to tongue wrestle each other into submission. As far as I know that is in fact some people's thing, but it's not what I'm here to talk about today. Those types of kisses trigger my genophobia and drift into smut territory, which really isn't what I'm aiming to teach you guys to do.

What I'm going to talk about is how important body language is to making a kiss interesting. A romantic kiss likewise usually lasts 2-4x longer than a non-romantic kiss, but we're talking 0.5 seconds to 2 seconds in this case, so it typically remains short either way. One easy way to make a kiss better is to combine it with a hug, but that isn't the only way. 

Gently holding your partners face as you kiss them and leaning in to match heights with them if you're taller are two ways to add much needed depth to the description of a kiss. A kiss without touching is weird. Don't have your character deliberately avoid touching someone or neglect to mention such unless there's a specific reason you're doing that. It communicates a lack of seriousness behind the gesture.

You can also hold someone by the hips or hands. And if you're feeling really over the top or you're trying to communicate a strong desire for further affection, you can pick someone up and carry them, or push them onto a couch for cuddling as you'r kissing them.

Lastly, ...eye contact. Personally I reflexively close my eyes when I kiss. I think that's normal? Something about someone getting really close to my face triggers the protect your eyes reflex in me. But before and after that, eye contact is important. Eyes are the windows to the soul, and it's often good to take a moment to emphasize the emotions in your characters' eyes during a kiss. Softness, tenderness, caring, full of fondness and love, all ways I'd describe eyes during a moment like that.

Sept 14, 2021 13:29:14 GMT -8 PolarStarQuote said:

How to Portray Jealousy, without upsetting your fellow writer as the other party?

Jealousy is one of those relationship drama cliches I'd warn you to be cautious about invoking. TV media depicts a whole lot of abuse in a very weird way and jealousy is one of the mechanisms through which said abuse occurs. And in fact, it can be a little risky to invoke said tropes without upsetting other people trying to get away from them. But since that isn't what you asked, allow me to move on to actually answering your question.

Like I said, there's always a distinct possibility that the other party is just going see jealousy and get a little put off because they've been in an abusive relationship inspired by jealous nonsense or they're just sick of jealousy drama on TV or what have you. That's not really something you can avoid, so my best advice is to pay attention to how much they try to disengage, stop it from happening, or describe it very negatively, and be willing to ask them about it.

Beyond that, the answer lays in moderation. A little bit of jealousy is just insecurity about losing someone and clinginess. This typically manifests as being insecure around what they perceive as competition and needing reassurance as to why their partner chose them. A lot of jealousy results in controlling and abusive behavior as someone tries to prevent losing their partner by any means necessary, which can quickly tail off into psycho stuff at the extremes.

Sept 14, 2021 13:29:14 GMT -8 PolarStarQuote said:

Polyamoury is just a nice kind of all around topic im curious about.

Sept 14, 2021 14:13:51 GMT -8 TheSpatialWeeg said:

Polyamory/Open Relationships (Same with Power dynamics)

The good news is, I'm poly/open and have plenty of experience writing these relationships. I've got a few on-site, with more pending.

Polyamory is conceptually being open to more than one partner in a relationship. An open relationship one in which people can date freely without having to consult the rest of their partners. Please note that these aren't necessarily the same thing. It's possible to have a closed polyamorous relationship in which everyone is dating each other, but they don't/can't invite others into that relationship unless everyone is cool with it. And it's possible to have open monogamous relationships where two people are a couple, but they're allowed to mess around with other people--the distinction being they aren't dating those people.

And there's another important distinction between 1 person dating two different people and 3 people dating each other. Both are poly, but in the former case, the two people that one person is dating may not have any feelings for each other.

Intrinsically, a poly relationship appeals to the type of person who simply rejects compulsory monogamy and finds that poly relationships work better for them. They may have two people they love instead of one. And they may reject the idea that they have to choose. It's as simple as that.

An open relationship in turn appeals to the type of person who does not want to be controlled or told what to do, or whom resents the feeling of being "owned" by their partner. An open poly relationship in turn, is an extreme "Free Love" relationship of the sorts Princess Peach believes in, where relationships are bound less by compulsory rules and more by a voluntary desire to be together and a willingness to make that happen.

Closed poly relationships are where there are 3+ people in a relationship, but it's not necessarily open to new people joining. Closed Monogamous relationships are the norm. And open monogamous relationships typically imply that only two people are dating, but those two people are allowed to go get freaky with other people--to put it bluntly. They're just not dating those other people.



Now, actually writing a poly relationship is simple. The most important rule is that characters in a poly/open relationship should KNOW they're in a poly/open relationship. The difference between being poly and cheating is consent. However, some people cheat because they're not cut out for a traditional relationship but haven't put enough thought into it to understand and put their own needs into words. Typically, this discussion happens in two parts:

1) Hey would you be fine with me dating other people? We'd still be dating, but I've got enough arms for multiple people and I think I'd be a lot happier if I could share that love with you and other people who deserve it.

2) Actually approaching the other person, including at least a brief mention that the relationship is poly/open.

Now, if it's a closed poly relationship or both people in an already existing relationship want to date the new addition, it makes sense for them to approach the third person with the offer together, instead of separately.

Functionally, poly relationships aren't fundamentally different from monogamous ones. Any advice applied to a monogamous relationship applies to a poly one. There's just another person there. When you cuddle, you just have one person on both sides of you instead of just one. Or not! Not everything has to be a group activity. It's really that simple. There can be unique forms of jealousy where one partner feels neglected, and unique activities you could try that require more than two people such as team sports. But at the same time, the fact that you don't have to dump someone to start a relationship with someone else can also assuage forms of monogamous jealousy too.

Poly relationships are unusual, but I'm of the opinion that normalizing them is a good thing.

[PolarStarQuote]

Great Advice!

I came up with an additional Question as well;

Best way to write a Romance between characters of *Different* Moral Standings. Aka; Evil Character loves Good Character, And hiw to make it work, Despite clear morality reasons

[Mari]

Sept 14, 2021 13:29:14 GMT -8 PolarStarQuote said:

How to write a Genuinely *bad* romantic partner, without making them just a cartoonish caricature of a bad romantic partner?

There are three methods of approaching writing a 'bad' romantic partner.

1) They don't meet the needs of their partner. They may be distant, neglectful, or just unwilling to do things their partner needs to be happy, yet they don't split up for reasons.

2) They abuse their partner. This could be physical abuse or emotional/mental abuse outside the confines of consensual playing rough. (Ex: It is not by default abuse for a couple to have a fight in the stadium.)

3) They are poor fits for each other. This is just a variation of the first one where both are bad partners for each other.

Someone who doesn't meet the needs of their partner is... the more subtle way to write a bad partner. They don't engage their interests. Maybe they don't let their partner enjoy any of the affection or intimacy they need to be happy. The prototypical bad partner of this type would be someone who is either oblivious to or ignores their partners distress and is just doing their own thing and dragging their partner along. Maybe they're just using their partner for something. Or maybe they're just a bit self-centered and are oblivious/don't understand how to help, or are a bit selfish and struggle with being more thoughtful to their partners needs.

Consider this bad partner example: Two men are in a relationship, but one of them is kinda grossed out by the idea of kissing another man. He isn't into any of the forms of romantic affection his partner is due to some really complicated feelings he's going through in regards to his own interest. He isn't a bad person. He's just a bad partner.

Now... an abusive partner is a tighter rope to walk when avoiding caricature. The scary thing is that sometimes the reality of an abusive partner takes the form of Evil Clown behavior. Gaslighting, victim blaming, verbal abuse. Sometimes it's all one big Hellish Clown performance they're putting on to control you.

Realistically speaking, the way you frame it matters a lot. If you don't want to portray it as cartoonish, emphasize how terrifying it is or how helpless it makes a character feel. Do not let your reader come away feeling like it was a joke. Abuse is not a good medium for jokes or revenge stories. Don't have the victim turn around and hit back for the lols and the satisfaction. If that's your temptation writing an abusive relationship, my advice is to seek that out without the relationship component. Just beat up a jerk instead.

The second aspect is that you have to explore the feelings of the abuser. People don't abuse others without reason. Typically they're either taking out their own frustrations/problems on others, or they're just exploiting their partner for some sort of pleasure or amusement. One of my abusers used to like telling me he was going to leave me just to make me beg him not to so that he could persuade me to do things for him. That's how real abusers behave. They're just manipulative people who want something and take advantage of innocent people who won't stand up to them out of a misguided desire to be loved.

Perhaps the most prototypical abuser is the physical one though. Their modus operandi is a power dynamic gone toxic. They tend to enjoy that feeling of power they have over their partner. They like making them submit. And sometimes they'll even be nice to them after they do. That's how you get delusional girlfriends who aren't honest with themselves about how bad things are or how bad their boyfriend is. Because as long as she submits and does whatever he says, he's nicer to her and she can avoid a lot of it.

Consent tends not to be a thing in these types of abuser situations. Because y'know, you can't have consent with so much coercion around even if they do accept no for an answer. And sometimes they don't and that just becomes another method of exercising power and control. But we're spiraling into very dark places, so let me back up a bit.

The prototypical physical abuser scenario is that the abuser asks their partner to do something, or something isn't done to their standard, they get annoyed, and then they engage in abusive behavior to 'correct' their partner, and they don't stop until they're satisfied that their partner has submitted. Afterwards, they typically either cool off or become nice until another incident happens.

Sept 14, 2021 13:29:14 GMT -8 PolarStarQuote said:

How to write Tragedy in Romance, A Death or Major Injury?

The death of a loved one is a traumatic experience. First let's discuss grieving. People grieve in their own weird ways. Depression is a common result. The topic becomes sensitive. And they tend to have a hard time completely escaping the death in their thoughts for a while. Basic enough. Others get really angry and volatile because they're just done and can't deal with life around them. This usually manifests as brief outbursts and snappiness.

But there are other weirder ways to grieve too.

Sometimes trauma manifests as guilt (Could I have prevented this somehow?) and a difficulty accepting it wasn't their fault. Sometimes they cast blame on someone else (They were driving the car when the crash happened; this is their fault!) which can result in intense hatred and destroyed friendships. Sometimes they blame groups (My boyfriend was killed in the war. I'll never forgive the people of that country.) which can result in emotional prejudices forming. Other times they just stop caring about their diets and start binge eating or drinking a lot because it brings them some form of pleasure. Grieving periods are rarely anyone's high point in life.

Injuries are different. When you say major, my inclination is to ask "How major are we talking?". Are we talking "My leg is broken", "I have permanent and serious scars from a bear attack all over my face, arms, etcetera" or "My liver is shutting down and I don't know if I'll get a replacement in time"?

If it's something temporary like a broken leg, the typical response is concern, thankfullness that it wasn't worse, and a desire to take care of them / help them as they heal. Fairly simple relationship behavior.

If it's something that permanently mutilates their body somehow and they aren't going to get better, ...things quickly get darker. Most people who find themselves in this situation find that it tests their relationship. There's the question of "Will they still love me with these scars? I feel like I'm not beautiful anymore" or "Will they stay with me if I'll never walk again? I'm a burden." and that's not always an easy question to answer. People do get left over injuries like that, and part of it is that it's really hard to take care of people who have suffered serious injuries, and sometimes someone's mutilated looks can be deeply distressing to their partner. ...Of course, this is Li. We have magical healing here. There's no reason for a physical injury to ever be presented as something that can never be healed. Though, the cost and difficulty of finding strong enough magic for greater injuries may be serious. In D&D terms, you can heal most wounds with simple healing anyone can cast. But if you're missing an arm or an eye, you're going to need much stronger magic such as the 7th level spell regenerate to get it back.

And if your injury threatens to kill you eventually... Everything from above still applies, but slightly worse. Because the distress of knowing your partner might / is going to die layers on top of all of that to make things deeply unpleasant for your partner. And yes, people do get left while they're dying, sad as that is.

Sept 14, 2021 13:29:14 GMT -8 PolarStarQuote said:

And of course

Of course I do. -u- <3

Sept 14, 2021 14:13:51 GMT -8 TheSpatialWeeg said:

Answer everything.

Jokes aside. In terms of pre-relationship, I guess my big questions are how do I portray attraction

Attraction is composed of excitement and nervousness, not always in equal amounts. But it's one of the two. Usually nervousness is more common with people who aren't in a relationship, but that's not always the case. So, think about being subtly excited to see, be near, or spend time with someone. Or nervous about how they'll react to you. That's the basics. That's why people will cheer up when someone they like enters an otherwise meh day.

Physical attraction layers on top of that. Which is why you can have people who get goofily nervous or panic around really attractive people. But physical attraction can manifest in other ways too. Sometimes people get squirmy when they're feeling really attracted to someone. Sometimes physical attraction also manifests as an unspoken eagerness for something. Like, you can tell someone's eager to do something even if they haven't said something. And of course, for more assertive and forward characters, the phrase "eyeing someone like they're a hunk of meat" applies. This is an off-brand smug look filled with a certain desire in the eyes. Typically considered frightening when it's unwanted, it can be pretty special in the right context with the right person.

Flirting is a must. You don't have to do it constantly but it's normal to get in the mood to do it. Attraction based flirting mostly takes the form of flattery or playful teasing about personal or intimate subjects if your character is bolder. Playing coy may help.

And of course, a positive reaction to romantic gestures is a plus. It's fine to be chill with affection, but if you're trying to portray attraction you want to go further.  Typically, with a couple, this means returning the affection or initiating your own in response. A shudder or shiver of delight is a subtle yet common reaction to something you like, if you're say, being held when you really needed it.

Oh, and being playful about things is common with established couples who are comfortable with each other. It could just be asking something in a playful tone, or suggesting something coyly. That sort of thing.

[PolarStarQuote]

HAHA AGAIN SURPRISE BONUS QUESTION

How to best portray a characters shift between Sexualities? From Straight to Gay, Asexual to Bisexual, Etc. ETC. Not necessarily realistically, But perhaps just in the most engaging way?


What Are The cringiest romance tropes that are either overused/often poorly done?

[Rachel]

Hmmm... What if you want to explore feelings of attraction, affection and love but you want to hold off on a proper relationship for a while?

[Mari]

Sept 14, 2021 14:13:51 GMT -8 TheSpatialWeeg said:

and Touching and affection. I was gonna ask about communicating ships, but Blade already asked that question, so I'm not gonna repeat that.

Touching and affection are critical to most romantic relationships. There are touch-averse people, but if someone is so touch-averse they don't even want their partner touching them, that's a pretty extreme depiction of touch-aversion.

How much touching and affection a character is comfortable with can really vary, and when you're in public you run into a Public Displays of Affection problem. But a lot of that REALLY depends on how much the people you're RPing with want to heckle your romance. So once again that's just a matter of reading the room and it being the right time.

A couple of examples of discreet/subtle affection are hand holding, brushing your thumb across the back of someone's hand, leaning against someone without embracing them, fixing someone's hair for them, offering to fix their makeup for them. A fond look also qualifies. Never forget a character's expression. Sometimes it's just as simple as describing the emotions in one's eyes, such as gazing at one with keen affection in their eyes, or beaming proudly at someone. The way someone looks at you can say a lot very discreetly.

As for stronger forms of affection... You've seen me previously discuss how holding someone can very intimate and I'm going to expand on that a bit. The underlying emotions that make holding someone intimate are protectiveness/a desire to comfort, clinginess, possessiveness--generally not all at the same time. You want to focus on emphasizing those emotions as you describe affection. Protectiveness/comforting can just be a desire to coddle and pamper someone with one's touch and usually involves more gentle, affectionate touches, brushing touches, and a level of firmness such that there is no doubt about whether you will let go. Clinginess/possessiveness is usually a bit tighter/firmer out of a desire to prevent the affection from being broken or denied. 

A specific rule about affection. Do not squeeze, pinch, or slap anything unless you are trying to fluster someone. Doesn't matter what part of the body. Pinching cheeks flusters people. Squishing hugs fluster people. That being said, a bit of flustering isn't always a bad thing if the characters are close. At that point it's comparable to playful teasing. And with relationships that have a certain power dynamic within which rough housing is a bit more normal, characters may actually like that. (Arle and Rulue come to mind)

Y'know what doesn't hurt to mention? Warmth. People are warm, and the fuller the embrace the warmer it gets. It doesn't need to be cold for you to mention it either. It's something people notice regardless of the temperature.

A few other tips: Slowly brushing your hands across someone can be very intimate. It could be their face, or their back. It's the slow, methodical fondness that makes it nice.

If dealing with characters who have long hair, fixing their hair for them can be a light form of affection, especially when you're going in for a hug or a kiss.

Sept 14, 2021 14:13:51 GMT -8 TheSpatialWeeg said:

Now for an unique one(?): How do I make the realization that someone's in love with another feel natural?

Love typically comes about in one of two ways:

1) A close friendship, but someone imagines taking it further and realizes they like how it feels in their heads. These are those 'gay thoughts' dorks in the closet are always running away from / in denial of.

2) Someone else brings it up, they think it through, and realize they either like the thought or are okay giving themselves a chance to grow into liking it.

This is not to be confused with attraction. Attraction is usually a thing someone's very aware of to some extent. Arle basically thought bubbled that Rulue was extremely attractive the moment she saw her. She just never said anything about it.

So to answer your question, love feeling natural is generally preceded by a close friendship and then just kinda spontaneously emerges after a character idly thinks about lovey / intimate things. Since those are typically private thoughts, love can kinda appear to come out of nowhere even when natural.

In Arle's case, she was in denial for a bit, but once she started thinking about it she couldn't quite fully stop the thought from coming back sometimes and realized she liked the idea. See the natural progression there?

Sept 14, 2021 14:13:51 GMT -8 TheSpatialWeeg said:

Now for the relationship is the meat and potatoes of this post.

How do you make a romance interesting and distinct from a close friendship? (Lack of confidence on whether I'm actually writing a romantic pair rather than 'close friends except they kiss sometimes')

This one is slightly tough, because the reality is that if you're an asexual, poly/open person like me, the distinction can just kinda stop existing or become somewhat difficult for the average person to point out. And obviously, sexuality can be a touchy subject for some. And even further, sometimes it's okay to not remind people these characters are in a relationship! Is the middle of a battle necessarily the best time for romance? ...Maybe if someone's dying, but other than that--It's usually fine not to?

But here's how you do it:

1) Consider not playing an asexual coded character. It's very slightly cliche within the context of 'all ages' media. It's not virtuous or healthy. It's just kind of a thing we all do because we've seen what happens when you go too far in the opposite direction and we're all nervously eyeing the rules. But y'know, there's middle ground there. I'm not saying go nuts, but it shouldn't be a secret that the characters are physically attracted to each other. And this last part isn't like, advice for Li specifically but for writing more generally. Part of that means when judgmental people look at you funny for daring to acknowledge such emotions exist, you need to be ready to look them in the eyes and tell to quit being so god damn weird about it. Because if you don't stand up for your rights sometimes, people will make you feel insecure about them until you stop.

2) Diversify your affection~! A kiss on the lips is just one way of showing it. A kiss on the head or the neck are another. Embraces and other touching make up the majority of affection though. Also, sometimes words work! See my answer to Touching and Affection 2.0 for more on that.

3) Use words occasionally! Physicality is where the passion comes from, but words can definitely play a supporting role. There's the classic I love you, playful compliments, cute nicknames, and of course flirting.

Sept 14, 2021 14:13:51 GMT -8 TheSpatialWeeg said:

Touching and affection 2.0 (Want to expand my repertoire on things I can do)

Alright let's talk about forms of affection that are typically reserved for more serious relationships. 

The neck is an intimate place to be touched, but doing so with your hands has connotations of strangling and thus should be avoided. It is not uncommon to plant kisses there, however. And playful bites on the neck are actually a fairly common method of playful affection. If you've ever heard of a hickey, those are just light bruises from playfully rough bites. Remember how that one vampire Phreeze played described the biting of necks as a romantic thing? He is actually correct. You might be frankly shocked at how often vampiric death kisses are described as being very intimate in fiction, even as the victim is being killed by them. This is typically more popular among girls, typically has elements of a power dynamic to it. And yes, you should consider how that reflects upon how Namine should feel after being attacked by one. Violence that is also intimate tends to have an extra layer of complicated feelings attached to it.

Ears can fill a similar niche to the neck in terms of being a sensitive place to be touched, though they aren't usually kissed. They are, however, occasionally lightly bitten. If you're dealing with an elf or other race with longer, more sensitive ears, this might be of particular worth noting.

Also, if you're me, sitting on someone can be a very aloof way of demanding their attention. But the results vary wildly if you're considerably bigger than the person you're sitting on. Like you can do it, but if you're bigger than the person you're sitting on it might come off more flustering. Not that there's' anything wrong with playfully flustering someone you like a bit~ I definitely recommend the tactical sit as a method of grabbing someone's attention. Typically the lap is the expected place, but anywhere works if you're trying to fluster. Though the lower legs are a good place to avoid. Sitting on someone while facing them drops the aloofness but replaces it with assertiveness that lends well to further affection if you're looking for something more passionate.

Carrying and cuddling someone bridal style is a nice gesture that's just barely too sweet for non-couples to do without overt romantic tension. Great for if you're stronger or have a protector / dominant power dynamic.

Remember how I talked about hugging characters heads to one's chest? You can take that a step further by doing that while sitting/laying down so that you can do it for an extended period of time and it can just be really cozy snuggling. And the secret to make that REALLY nice is once again to pay some attention to the details. The gentle rise and fall of the chest with each breath. The beating of the heart they might be able to hear if they have their ear pressed to it. I've always liked the idea of listening to someone's heart personally, but I've heard some other people find it unsettling? I'unno. But it's worth considering I think.

[Mari]

Sept 14, 2021 14:13:51 GMT -8 TheSpatialWeeg said:

Fun/cute things people who are in a relationship can do to show they love each other (Again, expanding on the repertoire of things I can do)

The golden rule is that all the fun things you'd do with friends still count, but add in taking care of each other. Go get haircuts or manicures together. Treat them to a spa day. Go out to eat. Help them exercise or train. Take them to the doctor's when they need it. If they're young, help with each other's schoolwork. Groom their hair for them. Help them with makeup. Bring a snack and a drink to share during the day. Basically, if you can think of any way to take care of them some or make their lives a little easier those are good ideas. These make up all the little things that add up to a really supportive relationship.

Sept 14, 2021 14:13:51 GMT -8 TheSpatialWeeg said:

What relationship clichés I should avoid? (Guess why this one is here)

Here are the popular ones you should avoid and a brief explanation of why:

1) If anything goes wrong in a relationship, you get to abuse your partner for it. Did they cheat on you? Start a screaming match and throw all their stuff on your lawn. This garbage cliche is in basically every drama romance and is just the worst. People imitate this crap in real life and abuse real people. Holy crap is this the absolute worst yet persistent cliche in romance. It completely ignores that simply choosing to split up skipping all the revenge and abuse is an option, let alone attempting to work through the problem. All healthy solutions to the problem are discarded in the name of cheap drama. So much for love. Time to go at each other's throats.

2) Nobody ever talks about boundaries or rules for a relationship. They just all have an unspoken agreement about what cheating is they learned from TV or books or whatever and never ever talk about it until it's time to abuse someone as per the previous cliche. This is a terrible yet also common way to approach relationships IRL that is good to avoid both IRL and in fiction. Wow I wonder if keeping the rules to a relationship a secret is ever going to cause problems oh you kissed a friend? Now we have to fight.

3) Everything yields to make time for your romance. Friends and family become tertiary concerns and fade into the background, helplessly drifting away as your entire life re-arranges itself to cater to your 'romance'. This gives an extremely unsettling vibe off to people observing and can go as far as wearing creepily dehumanizing and indiscreetly threatening T-Shirts in public. The logical conclusion of this is the worst nightmare abuser situation where you depend on your partner for everything, live in some remote-ass location where nobody can help you, aren't allowed to talk to anyone else without permission, and if you step out of line you wind up dead for 'betraying' them. You want to steer clear of this entire aesthetic. At best you'll cringe at what you thought was funny in hindsight.

4) You hurt me so now I'm going to dump you because the TV said that's how I should feel. Most pop culture relationships have almost no ability to survive the rigors of life. They are sad and weak, often completely skipping over any attempt to salvage or heal a relationship. This is like abuse but isn't necessarily abusive so much as it is just dumb.

Sept 14, 2021 14:13:51 GMT -8 TheSpatialWeeg said:

Good habits and bad habits for writing bumps in a relationship (Taking notes for the future)

Good Habits: 
Talking about feelings
Asking for change or compromise
Gaining a new understanding that helps one accept what happened
Giving it time
Working with partner to make it work
Speaking to / getting help from others
Taking a break from partner's company to heal
Looking to other people for comfort or to fulfill your needs if partner can't

Bad Habits:
Using bumps as an excuse for abuse and painting it as justified anger
Treating dumping someone as the default response to any meaningful slight
Nothing changes, and yet everything goes back to normal
Treating bumps as being serious but also using them for gags simultaneously.

[Mari]

Sept 14, 2021 14:13:51 GMT -8 TheSpatialWeeg said:

Power dynamics (Taking notes/general interest)

Power dynamics are actually ... pretty important to relationships. Not every relationship has them, but the majority probably do to at least some extent. At their core you can break them down into dominant and submissive personality types, which in turn fracture into other personality types like assertiveness, spontaneity, and approval-seeking behaviors. And... Let's see... How do I put this next part.

According to a poll
18% of men identify as dominant
10% of men identify as submissive
32% of men identify as both

4% of women identify as dominant
21% of women identify as submissive
24% of women identify as both

Both indicates flexibility based on mood or other circumstances. As you can see there's a tenuous but non-insignificant gendered lean to these personality types. And the reason I bring this up is to kinda highlight why Satan is terrified of Rulue. Stigmas against submissive men and ESPECIALLY against dominant women are not a thing of the past, and they're reflected in how people choose to identify.

Now that I've covered that though, let's talk about healthy vs toxic power dynamics. Healthy Power Dynamics are generally defined by at least some level of consent and mutual enjoyment. One character is simply okay with the way the other treats them, they both understand that, and there's no harm being done. Toxic power dynamics happen when characters act selfishly without thinking about or caring what their partner wants and wind up hurting them physically or emotionally, violating their trust, and otherwise crossing boundaries.

The healthy way to go about maintaining a healthy dynamic is simply to ask questions. Let's say that you're playing a character with a dominant personality type and then scoop their partner up into their arms without asking, just kinda assertively embracing them in a possessive manner. Communication would be asking if they're okay with that. With something that small, it's probably okay to ask afterwards as the consequences of someone saying no are pretty mild. That won't always be the case though.

In turn, a submissive character usually finds the spontaneity exciting. And the two actually go well together. "Equality" in a relationship would be when neither character does such things, and typically implies playing it overly safe in terms of consent. Which is a nice idea, but not every person will be happy with every relationship dynamic. And it's also entirely possible to have two dominant or two submissive personality types in a relationship. This can result in friction, but do recall how many people answered "both" on that poll. Sometimes a bit of flexibility is all that's required to make it work.

Sept 15, 2021 11:23:31 GMT -8 PolarStarQuote said:

Great Advice!

I came up with an additional Question as well;

Best way to write a Romance between characters of *Different* Moral Standings. Aka; Evil Character loves Good Character, And hiw to make it work, Despite clear morality reasons

Well... That depends on whose definition of best you're using. By Bowser's definition of best, the best way to have a romance between him and Peach is for Peach to be obedient to him and have no choice in the matter. And that generally tracks for the evil perspective. An evil character is either going to want total domination of their good partner or they're going to want to use them in between being evil. Like, they're getting some personal fulfillment from their love life and do their best to keep it separate from their evildoing. In the former case, the good character simply does not get a choice. In the latter, the evildoer hides their evilness to preserve the relationship. Both assume the evil character knows the good character is good.

Now for the good characters' perspective. Here are a few ways a good character could conceivably fall in love with someone who is evil.

1) They don't know or are in denial about their partner's evil.
2) They think they can fix the evil character and don't believe dumping / denying them love will help.
3) They have no self-control and just cannot resist the evil character. "Oh no, he's hot!!"
4) They have been blackmailed or otherwise coerced into doing it.
5) They are using the relationship as a method of controlling or restraining an evil character to reduce the harm they do.
6) They are too weak to escape and are being abused by the evil character.

And those are basically it. As you can tell, some of these are more contrived than others. 1, 2, and 4 are the most realistic. 3 is not technically impossible but is a gag premise. 5 is very contrived, but less of a gag than 3. 6 is the scary option.

From MY perspective... 4 and 5 are the most interesting from a plot perspective. But I can't imagine a good/evil relationship being anything other than concerning at best. I feel uneasy recommending 6 for anyone. I feel like that would wind up being hard to read for some people, and would provoke a hero response rather than being allowed to continue existing as its own thing as a result.

Sept 16, 2021 7:14:48 GMT -8 PolarStarQuote said:

HAHA AGAIN SURPRISE BONUS QUESTION

How to best portray a characters shift between Sexualities? From Straight to Gay, Asexual to Bisexual, Etc. ETC. Not necessarily realistically, But perhaps just in the most engaging way?

NOT realistically and engagingly? Well that's an interesting qualifier. So, there are a couple of answers to that. The first is denial. I can't speak for everyone, but I love a good coming out story and I love dorks who are lowkey kinda obviously gay but take a long time to accept it. I assume the reverse is probably appealing to someone else? Maybe. They're slightly ashamed of their feelings, tune them out, and just need time and help accepting them. Not entirely unrealistic, because that was definitely me, but one of the less common types. Denial can be fun because it gives the other character something to tease and prod about for reactions.

And the least realistic of all is probably being so attractive to someone that you literally change their sexuality by awakening them on the spot. Almost completely absurd realistically, but a pretty funny way to play things. Realistically implies the character in question lacks exposure somehow. As in, they've literally never seen a sufficiently pretty/handsome person before. Which is unrealistic, but y'know.

My instinct tells me that the funnier the transitionary period is, the more engaging it'll be. Unfortunately I'm having trouble thinking of more ideas on how to make a gag out of it...

Oh right yandere. Personally I don't like these tropes, but it occurs to me how hilarious some people would probably find the idea of a previously ace character developing a violent obsession over someone as they have a sudden awakening and don't know how to deal with these new feelings or desires.

Sept 16, 2021 7:14:48 GMT -8 PolarStarQuote said:

What Are The cringiest romance tropes that are either overused/often poorly done?

...First of all all those romance cliches I responded to Weeg with. Those are all awful. But expanding on that outside the scope of cliches...

Hey y'know that trope from anime where the boy gets knocked about and through no fault of his own winds up face-first in a girl's chest and then she beats the crap out of him and/or shouts at him calling him a pervert despite having eyes and ears to have observed what just happened? That trope is garbage.

Also y'know how some romance novels just gloss over abuse and ship characters with their abusers. Bleh.

The woman who only wants a man for his money trope. Great, woman bad. Now what? Am I supposed to continue investing myself in this relationship? No thanks.

The walking negative femininity stereotype to serve as the rival to the more virtuous love interest. Reeks of "Tomboys are better" and misogyny.

The dude who treats every woman terribly except his designated love interest. Woman bad! ...Except this one. More misogyny.

The not like other girls trope--You get the idea. More misogyny.

Y'know how some people will pair characters together for looking hot together with zero regard for chemistry? That sucks.

Love triangles. And by that I mean monogamous ones where two people are fighting over the third. They tend to be handled clumsily and carelessly as a cheap excuse for drama or a gag in my experience. =/ So poorly done.

Love at first sight. The only way this trope can be played earnestly is if you change love to lust and have the love develop later after they get to know the character.

Kissing someone who's trying to talk to you about something important to them to make them shut up. The messaging of this trope is all wrong and assaulty.

Sept 17, 2021 7:57:01 GMT -8 Rachel said:

Hmmm... What if you want to explore feelings of attraction, affection and love but you want to hold off on a proper relationship for a while?

Y'know that's a good question. Because I'd be concerned about leading someone on OOCly and I'm sure that's something other people might worry about too. I guess there's no easy solution to this other than being forward about your desire to take things slow. Perhaps instead of refusing characters that ask for a date/relationship, you could give them a conditional response instead that leaves the door open in the future without saying yes.

Other than that, just go for it! Nothin' wrong with a character who just wants to do what feels right in the moment I s'pose. Or someone who has commitment issues. Casual love is valid. You've just gotta be mindful of the expectations your writing partner might have so that they understand you might not be looking for something fully realized right now.

[PolarStarQuote]

One more additional question from your good Love-fu Pupil, the Quotester


Good ways to play/Write for a Dominant Romantic partner? 


And while i'll leave that question to itself because thats a universally fairly nice question, I would also like to ask if there are any specific tricks to write for a *female* Dominant Romantic Partner. Certain abilities that Girls can do that Men cant, Or even just general Lesbian Romance Power-plays,